Please advise or share your experience

Hi all, I don't have a mirrorless camera so I'm a stranger to this forum. Nevertheless, I hope members will give me the benefit of their advice and experience.

To cut a long story short, I have a friend (and voluntary colleague) who arrived - 5 years ago in NL as a refugee without much money. With an old, borrowed DSLR + lense, he took up voluntary photography work for the organization that I also for.Initially, his main aim - through his voluntary involvement in photo-shoots and editorial meetings - was to improve his fluency in the Dutch language. Based on his initial photos, I was asked to 'coach' him in photography.  Since then, we've become firm friends! Soon after his initial 'voluntary work', he got a permanent job. But he still (voluntarily) takes photos and attents editorial meetings when his shift work allows.,

When his 'old, DSLR + lens' borrowing period came to end someone else suggested he buy an old, second-hand 'camera kit' on a local online ad/auction website: a 2005 (8 MB) Olympus E500 kit, including  lens and flash unit. Yes, it was dirt cheap but pretty much useless. For almost every photo he took, he had to use a flash. His photos also came out with a distinct blue or green wash.

So, now - 5-6 years later - he wants to buy a better camera and lens with a budget of roughly $1000. He asked me to hep him make a choice. There literally thousands of cameras of different types that fit within his budget. My initial reaction was that he could pick up a used DLSR (or example a Canon EOS mk iii body + lense) within his budget. But this afternoon - together with him  - we discovered that there were attractive (body + lense) deals on new, mirrorless cameras.

As a DSLR 'dinosaur', I know nothing about the 'mirrorless market. He has no legacy 'lens collection' so he's basically starting from scratch. That's why a 'new camera + lense' deal is probably more attractive for him than buying separate bodies and lenses. If I was starting from scratch (without a lens collection), I might have gone mirrorless too!

Within my friend's budget of $1000, we saw a couple of attractive deals online:

 - Panasonic Lumix G80/90 bodies + 12-60mm lense

- Canon R50/R10/R100 bodies + lenses

- Fujifilm, others?

So my questions are:

- do you have any opinions regarding the choice(for my friend)  between an (old) DSLR and a 'mirrorless' camera (I've already read web articles 😉 )

- has anyone any experience with and/or comments on the brands and models I mentioned above?

From what I've seen internet so far, my friend might just be able to afford an (old) full-frame DSLR but not a FF mirrorless. I assume that there's an improvement in technology between  (older)  SLR's and more modern mirrorless cameras. But t.b.h., I'm not sure.

From what (little) I understand, the image quality is determined by the size and quality of the light sensor DSLR or mirrorless). More modern (mirrorless) sensors  - perhaps - result in better image quality than DSLRs.

I think Panasonic is a great choice. A 4/3 sensor @ around 16mp should be more than adequate for excellent photos. I use an old Panasonic GX1 and an even older GF1.

While I agree with Sanford in basics, the real issue is what does he plan to shoot primarily? There are tons of excellent used manual focus prime lenses which when used on adapters (inexpensive) can deliver great results. A relatively inexpensive used mirrorless body and several lenses are well within his budget. If he wants autofocus lenses for his body, they will generally be much more expensive although there are some Chinese manual focus lenses which have recently come out which are priced quite affordably. I'd suggest he do some reading on the net's mirrorless forums to gain a perspective. I did that over a few weeks and it really helped me drill down on what would work best for me. Places like KEH and Roberts, which offer moneyback guarantees are good candidates to scour over.

I think SCL asked the best question, where does the fellow's interests lie? Nature and landscapes would suggest the need for long lenses, but for interesting doors, window reflections and street shooting a little Panasonic, Lumix, or fixed 23mm on the Fuji 100 line would be excellent.

Just me but I settled on the discipline of the 23mm fixed lens and have not regretted it for street and landscape. Love the old chestnut, it's the Indian not the arrow.

Some things in digital cameras have not changed just because of mirrorless.  For cameras with sensors made with similar tech, an APSc sized sensor will have about a 2/3 stop advantage in high ISO performance compared with M43, and FF will have about a 1 stop advantage over APSc (with similar improvements in DR).  If your friend shoots in available low light, this is still a factor. 

Most of the Canon kit lenses are also on the slow end, and as of now, there are not a lot of RFs lens options and Canon has mostly closed the door on third party AF RF lenses.  M43 have tons of lens options at many price points.  Fuji also an attractive option for camera body and lens choices, but I am less familiar with them.  

If your friend shoots stuff that moves, the advantage falls to Canon and Sony for very effective AF tracking and subject recognition in their low end offerings. Current Panasonic/Olympus AF tech in their m43 entry level stuff is far less advanced.  Check DP Review for this.

For FF mirrorless, the Canon RP or Sony A7ii (used) may work within the price point, depending on lens needs.  The Sony has IBIS, so if there is a desire to use adapted MF lenses, you would have that going for you.  I don't think I would get a first generation Sony FF.  I don't think any Nikon Z FF bodies are within your price range, and they have not yet made much of a commitment to APSc.

I think a kit based on an Olympus EM-1 II is something to think about. I shoot with MkIII's now, but the MkII still impresses in 2023. It will match or out-perform a lot of contemporary cameras with bigger sensors in almost every way. It's better to have two MkII's than just one MkIII, of course.

Fujifilm is the only brand that tempts me away from Olympus (now OM System). So I would take that brand seriously, too.

I would avoid the Canon RP like the plague. 

2 hours ago, Ken Katz said:

 For cameras with sensors made with similar tech, an APSc sized sensor will have about a 2/3 stop advantage in high ISO performance compared with M43, and FF will have about a 1 stop advantage over APSc (with similar improvements in DR).  If your friend shoots in available low light, this is still a factor. 

 

You are not wrong, Ken. But, as you said, you have to compare like with like. An old MFT camera will have more DR than the Canon RP, for example. 

The RP probably has the worst DR performance of any FF mirrorless camera, but while I generally loath using DxO data, a DR of 11.9 vs 12.8 for the Sony sensor in the EM-1 mkii is certainly lower, but may not be all that noticeable in the field.  The RP's high ISO rating of 2978 vs 1312 for the Oly 20mp camera will be of greater consequence in low light.  With my Olympus EM-5 iii (same sensor and AF system as EM-1 ii) 6400 ISO is the maximum I would use, and will generally need Lightroom AI powered noise reduction to get a good image. 

As an Olympus/OM user for over 12 years, I would be reluctant today to go with m43, but that discussion is best for another thread (I don't want to hijack this thread to discuss m43).

Many thanks for all the feedback above!

My friend wants to take broadly 3 categories of photos:

1. Photos of his wife and kids when they go on trips or take holidays, photos of friends etc

2. 'Scenic' (rather than 'Landscape') photos

3. Voluntary (indoor and outdoor) photos of individual people and small groups

He currently uses a very old (2005) Olympus E-500 which - apart from having awful blue/green color casts - has a maximum ISO of just 1600. So for any low-light (indoor) photos, he always has to use a flash. Although the color casts can be corrected in PP, the flash really screws up the the quality of his  photos. Especially in smaller rooms..

When we first spoke, I mentioned that I very rarely use a flash .I just prefer natural light and a FF camera naturally helps. If I ever use a flash, its bounced off a wall or a reflector that I carry around. So my wish for him was that he could take (most) indoor photos with a higher ISO (than 1600) using natural light. Pretty much all his (and my) photos are published digitally So unless viewers really zoom in, they're unlikely to notice some ISO noise.

Through your valuable feedback to this thread, I suddenly realized that 'good low-light performance' was also a factor to be considered. There are some websites that compare the 'budget' DSLR and mirrorless options.

One more idea that this thread made me think about is this. My friend's budget and PP capabilities are unlikely to extend to Lightroom or Photoshop. But a one-off ($100 or less) payment for Photoshop Essentials would, I think help him enormously in learning the basics of PP.

On lenses: given the 'dynamic nature' of kids running around and groups ''moving around, I doubt whether a MF or prime lens would work for him. I suspect that he would prefer (initially) a short zoom lens that enables him to quickly frame and automatically focus on his subjects.

Just a a general reference, the Panasonic G80/G90 has a crop factor of 2.0 so the 12mm - 60mm lens translates to 24mm - 120mm FF equivalent.  I think that this is useful range for him. for the categories he wants to take.

In our last talk, we focused in on the Panasonic Lumix G80/90 'deal' just because it was packaged with a useful lens with a discount of about $150 on the lens.  If he's happy with that, that's fine by me. but I'll also look at alternative 'deals that offer perhaps better low-light performance.

Mike, your friend would be better off with a RAW converter, IMHO. There are a few out there, and I use Photo Lab. Capture One is my second choice, but I don't think that a non-pro would benefit from it.

specs dont make a camera , go with what is comfortable to hold and operate. more likely to use it. Mac